Trauma or Emotional Abuse? Gaslighting, Narcissism, and Lack of Empathy with Dr. Hawkins
You've tried everything but nothing changes. You may be wondering whether something deeper is going on. In Episode 17, our expert therapists are joined by Dr. David Hawkins, clinical psychologist and founder of the Marriage Recovery Center, to unpack the spectrum from narcissism to emotional immaturity, clarify what real remorse actually looks like, and work through a key question: is my mate in a season of affair fog, or is what I'm seeing a pervasive pattern? Whether you're newly in discovery or years in and still not seeing change, this episode offers hard-won clarity on what you're really dealing with — so you can start writing your own story.
What type of affair was it?
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I did not know that story…
I did not know that story about ECHO that Dr. John told in Part two.
My grandmother was ECHO.
My mother was ECHO.
I have been ECHO.
And no more.
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
I appreciate John's story…
I appreciate John's story and he tells it like so many have over the years. I disagree with how Echo is portrayed as losing herself or losing her identity. If she knows herself and what she stands for, she is not lost in the narcissist. Instead, she rises above the noise where the narcissist becomes the echo. Echo in the story is really not alone because there is universal design and love that keeps her 'grounded' in reality - it is called humility. There is a difference between what it 'feels like to be', and what really 'is'. When the narcissist becomes the echo, there is a clearing for her, a clearing especially designed for her where she rediscovers the wisdom of clarity. Everyone needs this clearing.
Wow. I was in tears…
Wow. I was in tears listening to this. My heart rate monitor went off twice.
I would be super interested to hear this conversation if the betrayed is the one exhibiting the signs and what that looks like for the unfaithful spouse. I think there can be a guilt/shame and the unfaithful feels like they deserve this so to just take it, because they do love them. What if the narcissist is not the “cheater”?
LOVED John’s mythology reference, I felt like God was speaking to me through this whole episode. Thank you all.
It sounds like this episode…
In reply to Wow. I was in tears… by AnonymousJane
It sounds like this episode really hit a tender spot and need for understanding. Thank you for commenting. You bring up a really hard point. The unfaithful spouse can feel like they have no right to speak against or name abusive treatment, even if they are experiencing abuse that has been present long before the infidelity. You may long to express remorse, but the abuse continues, and now you don't have a leg to stand on. So often these issues get ping-ponged back and forth: "You stepped out." ..."You hurt me. What you are doing is not ok."..."Yes, but you cheated."...the confusion goes on forever, and nothing gets healed.
I hear that you love our mate. You prompted me to listen to the episode again, and this is what I took from it. I really want Laurie and John on repeat in my head.
The end of the episode hit me first: the area of differentiation and separation. I might separate the two issues in order to gain clarity.
1. The suffering at the hands of emotional abuse and/or being the recipient of Narcissistic abuse. You are not responsible for this, nor do you deserve it, no matter what. Even the infidelity would not affect the steps needed to address this issue, especially if you have been experiencing it "pervasively:" before, during, and after the infidelity.
2. The infidelity, which is the unfaithful person's responsibility: betrayal of themselves and why, as well as the betrayal of the family. Yes, there is an emotional starvation that happens at the hand of an emotionally abusive individual, AND we still address the abandonment of ourselves and our commitments as a response to that starvation. John said we "lose ourselves" under such duress (38min), and in some cases, we even lose our moral compass or go to any lengths for kindness. That is on us.
I love how Laurie said differentiation as an individual is important when beginning healing from narcissistic abuse. "I am a person outside this relationship. This relationship doesn't own, consume, or define me." and I can look at my part.
I wonder if addressing the infidelity the same way could bring courage and a freedom to speak truth and love to one's mate: "I am a person outside of this infidelity. The infidelity does not own, consume, or define me, but I will own my part."
In both cases, I think what John mentioned could apply - As the one who strayed AND the one suffering in an emotionally abusive relationship, we can look back to see, "When did I begin to lose myself, and how do I get back?" What help do I need. How I do find myself again. How do I gain integrity, respect for myself, and respect or others. How do I heal?
Laurie acknowledged that abuse is never a marriage problem. It is an individual problem. And she named that this issue can show up on either side of the affair role, whether the betrayer or the betrayed. (37min)
I hope you find healing and direction in God's voice and his love for you. Blessings, and thank you so much.
Thank you for this podcast…
Thank you for this podcast. Jeremy guides the panel discussion so well. I appreciate the description of remorse. This was very clear. I know that my husband is not in recovery and shows no signs of remorse, but it is good to hear if definitively. Of course that doesn't tell me how long to wait.
I don't know that defining narcissism helps me know what to do. I probably was ECHO in the past, I didn't know who I was, but certainly am not now after doing a ton of my own work.
Your inner strength and…
In reply to Thank you for this podcast… by SE
Your inner strength and knowing come through in your post. Thank you for sharing this with us.
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